North Texas Society for Sustainability: native vs. nonnative

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grelihm
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5

Topic: native vs. nonnative
Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 12:57pm

I have three books on permaculture and forest gardening. All three of them seem to encourage the use of non-natives.

We have 20 acres that we want to build a permaculture system on. After learning from the Texas Native Plants Association (I do not remember their exact name at the moment so this maybe wrong), invasive non-natives in the wild are a huge problem and the government is using billions of gallons of herbicide each year in order to fight them. Obviously, such a heavy use of herbicide will harm more than just the target plants and can be quite destructive to the overall ecosystem. I really do not want to add to that problem through careless plant selection.

How do you all balance this? I have an invasive plant book now and see even some of the roses I was considering have become a problem in the wild. For non-natives, do you choose hybrids that specifically will not reproduce in the wild? Would this be a good approach?

I really like heirloom seeds for gardening, but maybe I should be careful that the plants introduced, that are capable of reproducing, will not grow successfully in this part of Texas naturally? To use these plants only in the intensive areas that are dependent on human intervention and only use natives (or generally accepted, non-problematic naturalized varieties), for the less intensive areas that require less human care in order to thrive?

How have you all dealt with this?

Thank you!

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Callaw
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Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3

Posted: 05 Oct 2007 at 3:21pm

Your post is old and it appears that there is no activity anymore for this forum but I am pposting anyways.

Natives are great, I have nothing against the use and practice of keeping natives in a grden/landscape, but when trying to design for sustainablility you need to focus on plants that return something either to you, the animals or the earth (for other vegetation). Regardless of species of plants.

We love to say that a plant is native, but I can't help feel that if soooo long ago the continents were all connected and then drift seperated them by water then plants have been passed by wind, bird and animal foder for 1000's of miles and only over time and by region do the plants climatize themselves. Humans do the same thing, just look at cultures and skin pigments.

this being addressed, look at plants. Natives have acclimated to a certain region of the globe, but some are poisonous to consume most aren't though. Finding out how to adapt them for consuption and gain the most for dietary reasons is the tricky part. For most native species here in Texas you can not supply the Max. possible Diet for health on Native plants alone. Sure you could grow alot and eat alot but still you would be missing something and either you go outside and purchase the extra needed or you go with non-native and get it at your doorstep. I believe that the biggest cncept taught by Permaculture is the use of plants, native and non-native, for total health and regeneration of earth, human , and animal.

You can not get hung-up on "should I use non-natives or not" and only think of what works cohesively to gain the most out of you sustainable food forest. The ultimate goal being the land sustains itself and you reap the rewards by being a good steward of the land. <We Do Have Dominion>

The use of non-natives that are invasive or at least classified that way can be of great benefit to someone in a sustainable setting. If monitored and the plant truly is invasive (by the way what you classify as invasive is not the same as what others might classify as invasive) then the right selected invasive can be used as an endless/regenerative supply of mulch for other plants.

Protect the soil and you protect your plants, in return you protect yourself.

Calvin

"Untidiness is just another form of tidiness" by Bill Mollison

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Jacey
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Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5

Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 6:52pm

1.One is always on a strange road, watching strange scenery and listeningto strange music. Then one day, you will find that the things you tryhard to forget are already gone. (wow power leveling)　

2.Happiness is not about being immortal nor having food or rights inone's hand. It’s about having each tiny wish come true, or havingsomething to eat when you are hungry or having someone's love when youneed love. 　

3.Love is a lamp, while friendship is the shadow. When the lamp is off,you will find the shadow everywhere. Friend is who can give youstrength at last. 　　

4.I love you not for who you are, but for who I am before you.

5.Love makes man grow up or sink down. 　

6.If you can hold something up and put it down, it is calledweight-lifting; if you can hold something up but can never put it down,it's called burden-bearing. Pitifully, most of people are bearing heavyburdens when they are in love.

7.We all live in the past. We take a minute to know someone, one hour tolike someone, and one day to love someone, but the whole life to forgetsomeone. Wow gold

8.One may fall in love with many people during the lifetime. When youfinally get your own happiness, you will understand the previoussadness is kind of treasure, which makes you better to hold and cherishthe people you love. 　

9.When you are young, you may want several love experiences. But as timegoes on, you will realize that if you really love someone, the wholelife will not be enough. You need time to know, to forgive and to love.All this needs a very big mind.

10.When tomorrow turns in today, yesterday, and someday that no moreimportant in your memory, we suddenly realize that we r pushed forwardby time. This is not a train in still in which you may feel forwardwhen another train goes by. It is the truth that we've all grown up.And we become different. 　

11.If you leave me, please don't comfort me because each sewing has to meet stinging pain. 　　

12.Don’t forget the things you once you owned. Treasure the things youcan’t get. Don't give up the things that belong to you and keep thoselost things in memory. 　　 world of warcraft gold

13.I love and am used to keeping a distance with those changed things.Only in this way can I know what will not be abandoned by time. Forexample, when you love someone, changes are all around. Then I stepbackward and watching it silently, then I see the true feelings.

14.Men love from overlooking while women love from looking up. If love isa mountain, then if men go up, more women they will see while womenwill see fewer men.　　

15.Good love makes you see the whole world from one person while bad love makes you abandon the whole world for one person.　

16.We shall always save a place for ourselves, only for ourselves. Andthen begin to love. Have no idea of what it is, who he is, how to loveor how long it will be. Just wait for one love. Maybe no one will comeout, but this kind of waiting is the love itself.　　

17.Is there anyone who hasn't suffered for the secret love? We alwaysthink that love is very heavy, heavy and could be the heaviest thing inthe world. But one day, when you look back, you suddenly realize thatit's always light, light. We all thought love was very deep, but infact it's very thin. The deepest and heaviest love must grow up withthe time. 　　 cd keys

18.In this world, only those men who really feel happy can give women happiness

19.If a woman is not sexy, she needs emotion; if she is not emotional, sheneeds reason; if she is not reasonable, she has to know herselfclearly. coz only she has is misfortune.

20.An unacceptable love needs no sorrow but time- sometime for forgetting.A badly-hurt heart needs no sympathy but understanding.　　

21. I know someone in the world is waiting for me, although I've no idea of who he is. But I feel happy every day for this. 　

22.In your life, there will at least one time that you forget yourself forsomeone, asking for no result, no company, no ownership nor love. Justask for meeting you in my most beautiful years. 　　

23.When you feel hurt and your tears are gonna to drop. Please look up andhave a look at the sky once belongs to us. If the sky is still vast,clouds are still clear, you shall not cry because my leave doesn't takeaway the world that belongs to you. wow power leveling

24.Idon't think that when people grow up, they will become morebroad-minded and can accept everything. Conversely, I think it's aselecting process, knowing what's the most important and what's theleast. And then be a simple man.　　

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Permaculture Open Forum
North Texas Society for Sustainability :Permaculture :Permaculture Open Forum

Author	Message
grelihm Affiliates Joined: 13 Jan 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Topic: native vs. nonnative Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 12:57pm
	I have three books on permaculture and forest gardening. All three of them seem to encourage the use of non-natives. We have 20 acres that we want to build a permaculture system on. After learning from the Texas Native Plants Association (I do not remember their exact name at the moment so this maybe wrong), invasive non-natives in the wild are a huge problem and the government is using billions of gallons of herbicide each year in order to fight them. Obviously, such a heavy use of herbicide will harm more than just the target plants and can be quite destructive to the overall ecosystem. I really do not want to add to that problem through careless plant selection. How do you all balance this? I have an invasive plant book now and see even some of the roses I was considering have become a problem in the wild. For non-natives, do you choose hybrids that specifically will not reproduce in the wild? Would this be a good approach? I really like heirloom seeds for gardening, but maybe I should be careful that the plants introduced, that are capable of reproducing, will not grow successfully in this part of Texas naturally? To use these plants only in the intensive areas that are dependent on human intervention and only use natives (or generally accepted, non-problematic naturalized varieties), for the less intensive areas that require less human care in order to thrive? How have you all dealt with this? Thank you!
	IP Logged

Callaw Affiliates Joined: 05 Oct 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3	Posted: 05 Oct 2007 at 3:21pm
	Your post is old and it appears that there is no activity anymore for this forum but I am pposting anyways. Natives are great, I have nothing against the use and practice of keeping natives in a grden/landscape, but when trying to design for sustainablility you need to focus on plants that return something either to you, the animals or the earth (for other vegetation). Regardless of species of plants. We love to say that a plant is native, but I can't help feel that if soooo long ago the continents were all connected and then drift seperated them by water then plants have been passed by wind, bird and animal foder for 1000's of miles and only over time and by region do the plants climatize themselves. Humans do the same thing, just look at cultures and skin pigments. this being addressed, look at plants. Natives have acclimated to a certain region of the globe, but some are poisonous to consume most aren't though. Finding out how to adapt them for consuption and gain the most for dietary reasons is the tricky part. For most native species here in Texas you can not supply the Max. possible Diet for health on Native plants alone. Sure you could grow alot and eat alot but still you would be missing something and either you go outside and purchase the extra needed or you go with non-native and get it at your doorstep. I believe that the biggest cncept taught by Permaculture is the use of plants, native and non-native, for total health and regeneration of earth, human , and animal. You can not get hung-up on "should I use non-natives or not" and only think of what works cohesively to gain the most out of you sustainable food forest. The ultimate goal being the land sustains itself and you reap the rewards by being a good steward of the land. <We Do Have Dominion> The use of non-natives that are invasive or at least classified that way can be of great benefit to someone in a sustainable setting. If monitored and the plant truly is invasive (by the way what you classify as invasive is not the same as what others might classify as invasive) then the right selected invasive can be used as an endless/regenerative supply of mulch for other plants. Protect the soil and you protect your plants, in return you protect yourself. Calvin
	"Untidiness is just another form of tidiness" by Bill Mollison
	IP Logged

Jacey Affiliates Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 6:52pm
	1.One is always on a strange road, watching strange scenery and listeningto strange music. Then one day, you will find that the things you tryhard to forget are already gone. (wow power leveling)　 2.Happiness is not about being immortal nor having food or rights inone's hand. It’s about having each tiny wish come true, or havingsomething to eat when you are hungry or having someone's love when youneed love. 　 3.Love is a lamp, while friendship is the shadow. When the lamp is off,you will find the shadow everywhere. Friend is who can give youstrength at last. 　　 4.I love you not for who you are, but for who I am before you. 5.Love makes man grow up or sink down. 　 6.If you can hold something up and put it down, it is calledweight-lifting; if you can hold something up but can never put it down,it's called burden-bearing. Pitifully, most of people are bearing heavyburdens when they are in love. 7.We all live in the past. We take a minute to know someone, one hour tolike someone, and one day to love someone, but the whole life to forgetsomeone. Wow gold 8.One may fall in love with many people during the lifetime. When youfinally get your own happiness, you will understand the previoussadness is kind of treasure, which makes you better to hold and cherishthe people you love. 　 9.When you are young, you may want several love experiences. But as timegoes on, you will realize that if you really love someone, the wholelife will not be enough. You need time to know, to forgive and to love.All this needs a very big mind. 10.When tomorrow turns in today, yesterday, and someday that no moreimportant in your memory, we suddenly realize that we r pushed forwardby time. This is not a train in still in which you may feel forwardwhen another train goes by. It is the truth that we've all grown up.And we become different. 　 11.If you leave me, please don't comfort me because each sewing has to meet stinging pain. 　　 12.Don’t forget the things you once you owned. Treasure the things youcan’t get. Don't give up the things that belong to you and keep thoselost things in memory. 　　 world of warcraft gold 13.I love and am used to keeping a distance with those changed things.Only in this way can I know what will not be abandoned by time. Forexample, when you love someone, changes are all around. Then I stepbackward and watching it silently, then I see the true feelings. 14.Men love from overlooking while women love from looking up. If love isa mountain, then if men go up, more women they will see while womenwill see fewer men.　　 15.Good love makes you see the whole world from one person while bad love makes you abandon the whole world for one person.　 16.We shall always save a place for ourselves, only for ourselves. Andthen begin to love. Have no idea of what it is, who he is, how to loveor how long it will be. Just wait for one love. Maybe no one will comeout, but this kind of waiting is the love itself.　　 17.Is there anyone who hasn't suffered for the secret love? We alwaysthink that love is very heavy, heavy and could be the heaviest thing inthe world. But one day, when you look back, you suddenly realize thatit's always light, light. We all thought love was very deep, but infact it's very thin. The deepest and heaviest love must grow up withthe time. 　　 cd keys 18.In this world, only those men who really feel happy can give women happiness 19.If a woman is not sexy, she needs emotion; if she is not emotional, sheneeds reason; if she is not reasonable, she has to know herselfclearly. coz only she has is misfortune. 20.An unacceptable love needs no sorrow but time- sometime for forgetting.A badly-hurt heart needs no sympathy but understanding.　　 21. I know someone in the world is waiting for me, although I've no idea of who he is. But I feel happy every day for this. 　 22.In your life, there will at least one time that you forget yourself forsomeone, asking for no result, no company, no ownership nor love. Justask for meeting you in my most beautiful years. 　　 23.When you feel hurt and your tears are gonna to drop. Please look up andhave a look at the sky once belongs to us. If the sky is still vast,clouds are still clear, you shall not cry because my leave doesn't takeaway the world that belongs to you. wow power leveling 24.Idon't think that when people grow up, they will become morebroad-minded and can accept everything. Conversely, I think it's aselecting process, knowing what's the most important and what's theleast. And then be a simple man.
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